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Rob:
Welcome to our podcast, All about the car brought to you by Schierl Tire and Service. I'm your host Rob Hoffman an auto service specialist with over 44 years of industry experience. On the ride with me today our regular guest Bryan Call, a 40 plus year veteran of the automotive industry. Hello O'Brien.
Bryan:
You make that sound like I've been around a long time.
I think, Rob, we're all getting old. And Bill Schierl, a guy that logs a lot of Wisconsin miles and always has a lot of great questions. Welcome back Bill.
Bill:
Thank you Rob. Glad to be here.
Good to have you both on the ride. Today we're going to discuss choices you have or not when changing your car's engine oil. We'll also talk about not using air in your tires. What's that about? Yeah. As automobiles started to grow in numbers in the early 19 hundreds, the need for many moving parts became necessary and the transportation of people and things. So regular maintenance became necessary. Where there are moving parts, there's friction, whereas there's friction, there's the need for lubrication. It's just as simple as that. You know, synthetic hydrocarbon oils were invented and produced back in 1877. Yeah, it's been around for a while. This was a coal based product. The need for synthetic oil really came to be during World War II when countries were being cut off from petroleum products and conventional oil performed poorly in extreme temperatures. The king of the oil industry Mobile produced and introduced its synthetic engine oil in 1974, followed by Chevron in 1990 and Valvoline in 1992.
So what was happening when in World War ii they were using synthetics. So you were saying that they introduced it at the retail market?
In World War ii.
Well, you just said that they had it in working in World War ii.
Yeah.
And they started to introduce it, but then you said Mobile introduced in 1974.
Well, after the war was over, there really wasn't a need or I guess the focus kind of dropped off for a while and then they started when the engines started to get higher technology and, and reving faster and we're driving more miles, they brought that synthetic idea back into play and it started to really work on it. I think in the late sixties. In World War ii, the important part or piece of synthetic oil was actually for the aircraft and the tanks. So bringing us up to speed to more to today's standards, You know, our automotive technology really is changing at a fast rate. We're starting to see a lot of different changes come into the inner workings in the mechanical part, the engines and we're actually asking a lot more of our engines and cars than we ever have before. Higher RPMs and longer distances and higher mileage. You know, some of our cars that we drive are up in that 250,000 mile range. It's crazy.
Oh goodness, we've got vehicles that come in with a half a million miles on. So
Wow.
To get this kind kind of mileage and longevity anymore is commonplace. And it has to be with the price of cars mean 60, 70, $80,000 for a car. You gotta have it last 10 years to get your investment back.
And the price of the cars that you just mentioned, there is a lot of new technology rolling into that. There is something in that price. I mean, there's a, a lot of research and development. A lot of the components that are attached to your engine, such as your transmission, transaxle, things like that, are really considered to be very specialized these days and require special lubricants.
Look at an expedition that's a full size vehicle. People hauler, product hauler pull boats, pull big campers. There's a lot of stress and strain put on that engine and they're running V6 s so they're downsizing the engine and demanding more power than the v eights that have been in there forever. In turn, that's putting more demand on the engine oils.
So dropping back down to a V6 from the old standard of a V8, that's probably just because of fuel economy right?
That's exactly what it is. Totally because of fuel economy. The government is mandating the cafe fuel requirements, corporate average fuel economy and those, those numbers are just climbing every year. It's, what is it, a couple years. It's supposed to be over 30 for everything that a manufacturer produces. So the more these big vehicles that they produce versus the small vehicles to get that corporate fuel economy up, you either get the better fuel economy out of the big vehicles or you sell a lot of small vehicles then. Fortunately in the US we like our big stuff.
You know, the other thing that we're starting to see come around, well we have for a while now, but starting to become even more evident is special lubricants. You know, we're talking about transmission, transaxle, engine oil, brake fluid, just all the lubricants and fluids that antifreeze anything, fluids in our, in our vehicles are becoming more specialized right down to the manufacturer or even models in some cases. Why is that?
It's the requirement that we're putting these components under. Let's take an engine example. You got turbochargers, which create more horsepower out of a smaller displacement engine. It's packing more air in to develop that extra power. You got variable cam timing, which creates more power by moving the cam shaft utilizing engine oil. So everything that they're doing is directly related to the oil itself and you get into some Mercedes and things like that an oil change is $200 on those because the oil is so darn expensive. They have their individual additive package for that particular oil. A Bugatti supercar, the oil change is $25,000.
Oh my gosh.
And you're required to do that oil change because the vehicle is rated for 260 miles an hour. So that's the exact, that's the extreme of what's going on, but that's what's happening in the industry.
So looping all the way back, what is this thing that you spoke of? The cam?
Your cam shaft is what opens and closes the valve to allow the air in and the exhaust out real...
Right.
Basic explanation of it. So as you create more horsepower, create higher engine speeds, you want to be able to turn that cam shaft to...
Faster?
Maximize No, it's not turning any faster than the engine is going. You're actually moving the cam shaft to open the valve sooner to allow more air and fuel to get in quicker while maintaining your low RPM performance. And that creates more horsepower and better fuel economy. But you're relying on engine oil to actually do that. Is this one those technical geek things?
Speaker 3:
Yeah it is.
That's what I'm thinking.
But where, what was, what was allowing for that to be changing the cam before?
Nothing. It never did.
So there was no lubrication on the cam.
The lubrication was there but the cam was fixed. So it was turning at engine rpm.
I see, so now it...
Instead of advancing and moving farther forward in the the stroke process.
To allow that extra air and fuel to get in faster.
Got it.
Now Bill, I don't think you drive a million dollar Bugatti, but...
No. I do not.
At least I don't think you do.
I do not. No. I don't need to go 256 miles an hour to work.
Oh, come on. Live on the edge a minute . But now with a better understanding of what Bryan's saying, can you picture yourself as you're driving down the road in the car you drive today,
Which is a later model, all that stuff going on. It's crazy.
Yeah, it is.
There's a lot of technology and all around you when you're driving your car.
You take that eco boost, which Ford is using that in almost every platform they have. And that engine, like in the Expedition I drive is developing 300 plus horsepower. You take that same engine and you increase the boost, put more air and fuel in. They're running them on race tracks in the two door racing class, same exact motor developing 700 horsepower is just...
At what point, at what point is that just asking too much of this poor little six cylinder engine that's down in the middle of this heartbeat?
And they perform phenomenally.
It's crazy
Technology. It's great when it works
and when it don't it gets really expensive.
Hey, we've gotten really deep here. So let's just reel it back a little bit and let's, let's talk about the basics. Let's go back to that. The original idea of the oil change, really the most important maintenance scheduled item that we can do. And so why is the oil change so important?
Because of everything we just described, we're demanding so much of this engine because of the oil that we've gotta get a high quality oil in and change it on a regular basis so it doesn't break down and cause additional wear on these new high technology products that are in this engine.
So basically it lubricates any friction in an engine.
Yes.
If it's designed correctly.
What I did find out, or we should know because we've been in the industry is long as we have because we're just old guys that are car guys.
Mm-hmm.
Oil actually is a cooling factor as well. It actually helps the engine to stay cool because of the less friction.
And a lot of cars have oil coolers on 'em too remotely takes the oil out there to help reduce the heat of that, to extend the life of the oil as well as the engine.
Ah.
So this all intertwines.
Coming back to the idea of the regular maintenance or the oil change...
The car manufacturers are going against what I believe in with extending the oil changes to eight, nine, 10,000 miles. It's such cheap insurance that how many people drive more than 15,000 miles a year?
Not a lot.
That's pretty much the average isn't it?
That's the average in our market. So in most cases, if you're changing every 6 7500, that's two oil changes a year. For most people, that's cheap insurance. Instead of going to 10,000 miles, 12,000 miles and causing that extra wear on the engine, doesn't it make more sense just to change it?
Absolutely. The other huge benefit to making that pit stop and getting that oil changed, like you had just said in those intervals, is the fact that it gives you a chance to stop, take a breath, sharpen a saw, and look at your car overall. Look at the tires, look at the brakes, check all the different fluids. It really is kind of a pit stop checkup is the way I like to look at it.
You're not looking at anything under the hood for 10,000 miles.
That's scary.
That's a year for most people.
Yeah absolutely,
And I'd say that, you know the fact of that the oil is, well we haven't even gotten into synthetic oil yet. So like we gotta go there...
We're gonna get there.
But you know, it's all, it is a recyclable product. So even if there was life less in that oil, it's being recycled.
Mm-hmm. .
It's not wasted.
And of course like anything, even the best oil, the synthetic that we're gonna touch on later, Bill that you mentioned there, even that will lose its effectiveness over time.
It breaks down as well.
It breaks downs down as well.
Even though it's synthetic, it's a premium product and we'll get there. But you've gotta get that old stuff out and the new stuff in.
Yeah. Very few things are forever. I think it's death and taxes. No .
Absolutely.
I'm thinking it might be the other way around. Taxes.
No doubt.
Well, like with every, all about the car podcast, we always break away a part way through our podcast recording and do a Wisconsin Road trip. This time we're hopping in the expedition that you mentioned earlier. Bryan, you're driving, we're shotgun and we're gonna head over to Sparta. Sparta, Wisconsin, which I'm sure most Wisconsinites have heard of Sparta. And in Sparta there's the Deke Slayton Astronaut Museum, which also houses the bicycle museum in the same building.
Oh. Near and dear to your heart.
Oh, I love it and I'm there a couple times a year and we do that Sparta Elroy Trail and go through the tunnels. It's an awesome, that's what it's known for.
That's what it's known for is the big trail, the bike trail and the big tunnels.
If you get a chance, I highly recommend doing the Elroy Sparta Trail, at least the tunnel part. And the one of those tunnels is three quarters of a mile long, it's just a little light at the end.
And what's amazing is at some times of the year it actually gets foggy in those tunnels where you cannot see that little light at the end. So you are going into a dark abyss and it's not until probably three quarters of the way through and you can finally start to see light at the other end. It's absolutely amazing.
So can you walk this tunnel or do you have to be on a bike?
Speaker 1:
They say you should walk your bike through the tunnel.
Oh.
You actually can walk the trail.
Okay. So everybody's definitely walking.
No one is riding their bike through the tunnel.
Do I follow those rules?
They do.
No.
But they're not supposed to.
I ride through.
That's terrible though.
I know. I know...
And you can do just that section. You can get off, what is it, Down by Norwalk?
I think so.
Somewhere in that area.
And just do the tunnel section. If you don't want to do the whole 50 mile Elroy to Sparta,
That'd be a long walk for sure.
That would be a long walk.
. However, we have veered a little ways away from the Deke Slayton Astronaut Museum. Now what's really cool about that museum is it's a true astronaut museum and Deke Slayton is from Sparta.
That's awesome. So I think that what's interesting is the history there that Deke Slayton, I mean he was an astronaut back in 1959, part of the first Mercury seven group that was formed by NASA. And you know, he had a 20 year career with NASA, which is, you know, pretty long, long journey.
There's pretty impressive.
Really.
A good fellow wisconsinite.
Absolutely. And not many people know that.
And most of those early astronauts were all test pilots, so they were all kind of crazy in the head to start with.
So they were charting new waters. Yep. They were doing things nobody ever did before.
Right he was part of the 1975, the Russian US Apollo, I don't even know how to say this. Soyoo... Soyez?
Very well done I think.
The docking mission and the whole connector. So that was pretty cool.
And this guy's from Sparts, Sparta, Wisconsin. It's awesome. And you might ask, well what do bicycles, which that part of the museum is really cool too, that's really near and dear to my heart. But what do bicycles and astronauts have to do in, you know, with each other? And quite frankly, the Wright brothers were bicycle mechanics and had a bicycle shop before they hit the air. So that's really the where... Where this all comes together.
And we were just talking about the Sparta to Elroy Trail, that that really was the first rails to trails program in the nation.
Absolutely. And it does have national recognition. And...
So I gotta ask you, have you driven or ridden one of those big front tire bicycles?
Big front tire bicycles?
Where the tire, the, the front tire is six foot in diameter.
Oh, the high wheel.
There you go.
Oh, that's what they're, I've I now learned something. They're called a high wheel. Okay.
I told my wife here just this summer actually, I would love to ride one of those things as dangerous as they look. I'd love to ride one.
You haven't done it yet huh?
No, I have not done it. I haven't had the opportunity. This, they're hard to come by, hard to find. And those that own 'em really keep em pretty...
Particular.
Pretty particular. I actually had considered trying to build one. If I was a better welder, I think I could do it.
Holy cow.
That'd be I, Yeah, that'd be awesome.
We know some guys that can weld.
Yeah, I can probably put this together.
But also at the museum there is a moon rock.
A moon rock.
Jumping back to Derek... Deke, sorry, that you know, from the standpoint of like it's the only moon rock in the state of Wisconsin.
That's really cool. So this is really a destination. I mean this is something to do. They have a lot of youth programs actually they have some overnight camps and things like that where they can get dressed up in the astronaut outfits. This is really a big deal.
Right. And you could as, and you could definitely do the moon walk in front of a moon rock.
. I dunno if I can do a moon walk.
If you do that, make sure you get that on video. Cause I would love to see that.
Yeah, that would definitely be a reels highlight.
All right. Back in the Ford Expedition, back to getting down to business with the talking about the oil changes. And Bill you had brought up previously synthetic oil. That sounds high tech. Just saying the word.
It is, it sounds like that there's no oil in it. Is that actually even true? I I don't think that's the case.
I think there's some oil in it, but overview of synthetic is that it's a manmade product. Is that true Bryan?
Yes, it is.
Now part of it's man made?
Speaker 2:
Or all of it?
It's in the refining process in answer to your question. I have no clue. ,
One thing we do know it is a superior product, which is why it came to be because it could withstand, as we talked about earlier, higher temperatures, higher revs,
Lower temperatures for our winter driving.
Yeah, extreme temperatures.
So it lubricates the engine components on initial startup in our 30 degree below zero winters that we have.
Absolutely. And then we also probably in the last 20 years or so, the, the automobile manufacturers has started to recommend it in their vehicles that we've been buying.
Comes back to the way the engines are designed and how much we're requiring. But also it is a component that helps with fuel economy cuz it flows so much easier with less horsepower to get that corporate fuel economy.
So it's slicker.
It's snicker .
So where do we find, if our listeners now are curious and wanna find out if their vehicle does in fact require or recommend synthetic oil, Where do we find that information?
I think we've said this in the past.
all 3:
The owner's Manual.
There we go. We're back on it.
In your glove box, almost any car can be converted over to synthetic and if you wanted to go back to synthetic blend or conventional, you can after the fact, it's, it's not a problem going back and forth. I would suggest sticking with synthetic because it is a superior product and you can extend your life out, change oil half as often and have to make that extra appointment to the, the repair shop and take an hour outta your day, half hour outta your day.
You know what I like about the whole idea is that quicker, better starts in the winter. And where we live here in Wisconsin, we hit extremes of all kinds.
Mm-hmm
We probably have the one spot in the nation where we do have all extremes and have a quicker start in our winters for that two month period is awesome.
Two months?
Well extreme...
When it's really cold.
Extreme
All right. I'll give you that.
It's not the Arctic yet.
But I like what you just said, Bryan mentioning that a superior product, it lasts longer so our intervals are further out, which means we're stopping that car less. So if you play it all out, it's really not costing us any more money.
No. Your investment is about the same because of the the extended life that you can get out of it.
And your recommendation Bryan, was that we can choose to go with the synthetic oil, the better product and then if we for whatever reason decided to jump ship, you can go back and you're not really doing any, any harm.
You're not damaging. Nope.
You're not that that's kind of was an old wild wife's tale.
It was. And going back into the seventies, early eighties, way back when I started, one of the myths back then was if you put it in a higher mileage vehicle converted over to synthetic, it's gonna leak oil everywhere cuz it can't handle it. That's a myth and fallacy too.
Remember that? Yes.
So one of the things that you had talked about in jumping back to the turbo charge of the engine, that the greater viscosity or of the new oil helps in that. What is turbo charging and how does that actually help?
Well the viscosity is the same between conventional and synthetic oil.
Okay.
The ability to flow and go through is different than viscosity.
Bill, I'm gonna come back to jargon alert. And this is something you used to bring up often,...
What's viscosity tell us that just so we understand.
It's how much oil flows at a specific temperature. So you have your five W 30 s, your five W 20 s, zero W 16, the one numbers for cold and the one numbers for hot and it's how well the oil flows at those temperatures and the viscosities are dropping over the years to help with the quality of the product is the biggest thing that's allowing us to do that. As well as getting the fuel economy of you dial it back, everybody used to use 10 W 40.
It doesn't even exist anymore. 20 W 50.
Oh okay.
You remember those?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
So those are going by the wayside because of it. But the oil is flowing better, smoother, faster because of the quality of the refining.
Is that high viscosity? High viscosity When it flow, When it flows better. So like a jar of honey has low viscosity?
Yeah, well depends And temperature. That's a great point. A temperature cold honey is gonna flow really slow. Room temperature of honey is gonna flow a lot bit. That's a great analogy.
Just to give it a visual for our listeners. Absolutely.
So the turbo charge.
Yeah, let's go back to that.
New Speaker:
That what is that really? I mean you know the new synthetics help protect a turbocharged engine, but what is turbocharge? I just know I push the pedal down and it goes faster. Right,
Exactly.
How does that actually happen in the engine?
So the turbocharger is hooked directly to the exhaust system. So the exhaust is turning a fan on one side, there's two components to a turbo. So as the exhaust goes out, it's turning this fan, which is turning an impeller on the opposite side to force air into the engine faster and higher volume. We get more air into it, we can put more fuel to it to create more horsepower, better efficiency.
The more the engine can fire...
The more air and oxygen and fuel that goes into
Bigger fire, bigger blast.
It creates more horsepower, creates more power. The other side of it is not as popular, but there's what's called supercharges. Those do the exact same things but they're driven by a belt off the crank shaft.
Interesting.
So it's flowing more air into the engine to create that extra power.
And that's why you can have a smaller V6 that gets more air and fuel into it and can fire at a greater velocity to move the engine.
Creating more horsepower, more power to out of a smaller displacement engine.
So blowing air into that fire in your backyard fire pit...
It's a bellow, it's basically big bellow so...
Like in the old days and it makes that fire just...
More gasoline poured on it with a more oxygen.
So do you got a turbo in your car?
I do have a turbo.
Oh you're loving that.
And they really go too.
The only time I'd ever, you know, passing a vehicle would be the time to really notice the difference.
You'll notice a big difference at that point, but it's always moving. It's creating more boost, more pressure going into the engine as you speed up and demand more out of it. There's a waste gate that allows some of that pressure to bleed by.
So I see the relationship here, we're talking about the turbocharges and how we really require much more from our engines these days and higher technology comes back to synthetic oil being a premium lubrication product and why that's so important in today's vehicles. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So what I'm gathering from all this conversation at this point is that our car owners do have a choice. You can make that choice to take better care of your investment. And like I think you said earlier, Bryan 70, $80,000 vehicles is not uncommon. Let's take care of 'em. You gotta take care of them. So I'm gonna throw kind of a little bit of a side winder in here. What about blended? What's blended oil? So synthetic standard oil blended. Am I saying that right?
It's getting to be the better, better part of both worlds. I mean synthetic blends are usually that about five to 10% synthetic and the rest is conventional oil.
But why?
Because it's a better, more refined product than regular conventional oil. So it's a good, better, best type
Good, better, best. Okay. But for the difference in price, it just almost doesn't make sense. I get it
Personally, every vehicle I drive has got full synthetic.
It might as well. Yeah. Blended seems to almost be the standard these days. Is that, is that accurate?
Yeah. Yeah. You don't find conventional true conventional oil much anymore.
Wow. Okay. Well that clears it up.
Lawn mower.
Yeah. Uh yeah probably so that's about it.
Well speaking of choices, let's talk about air in our tires. So there's an option out there to not fill your tires with air. What's that option?
Nitrogen .
So Mr. Scientist here, Bryan, tell us a little bit about nitrogen
Nitrogen's in our atmosphere it's 78% of what we're breathing every day.
So it's a natural product.
Yep. The advantage to putting in a nitrogen fill versus regular shop air is because it's a manufactured and re refined product, there's no moisture in it. Where I've seen nitrogen really shine is on a coach big bus.
Oh. Like...
Semi size tires on 'em.
And we've had a couple of gentlemen that monitor their air pressure, the tire temperature and all of that because they can generate so much heat when we put nitrogen in those particular vehicles, there's no moisture going in. The nitrogen molecule is bigger than the oxygen, which is 21% of our atmosphere. So the temperature runs cooler on those tires. The air pressure doesn't increase because of heat near as much cuz you don't have that moisture in there. So I've seen where it does work as far as in car light truck applications, I'm kind of on the fence on that one. The advantage is, again, no moisture in there with all the tire pressure monitors. It's gotta make 'em last longer. But as far as leaking, I don't really see the difference.
They say it's so minimal that it should not take the place of you actually checking your air pressures once a month is really what it's come down to.
And I think of sometimes that we have talked about classic cars that may, those vehicles are sitting for several months. That to me might be a scenario where you've gotten a classic tire, you've ordered it special, that having nitrogen in there without any water or moisture, I should say the tire would last longer.
That's one of the things that they say.
I haven't personally seen it.
It's supposed to not leak out as much and be more stable with air pressure. We were talking about this the other day and it got got me thinking, we really started having the tire leakage losing air pressure more common when we got away from steel wheels. So 20 years ago every car had hub caps and a steel wheel behind it.
Now it's alloy.
Almost everything now has an alloy aluminum wheel and the seal between the rim and the tire break and temperature change has a big effect on that. So I think it's, we're more aware of it now because of the type of wheel versus the air pressure actually leaking out through the tire. So again, I'm on the fence as far as in a vehicle.
I think of it is, how does one, do you have a bottle of nitrogen at home? I mean, you know, I think of that twice the checking it once a month. Say you find it's low, where do you go to get nitrogen? A bunch of convenience stores and gas stations in your neighborhood are probably not gonna have nitrogen pumps.
I don't think they're gonna have it.
Put air in it. Put...
It's okay.
Regular compressed air in it. You're gonna do more damage by trying to drive to find your nitrogen to get in there.
Sure.
Than you are going to, by putting a little bit of air to get the pressure back where it needs to be. And I've seen too many people that they put it in, they're trying to maintain their tires, the the absolute best they can and they're scared to death put air in. Now you're gonna potentially do way more damage by trying to find nitrogen than actually air up the tire.
That's a good point. Now the, in one of the industries out there that nitrogen does work very well in that I found out through my research is aircraft.
So airplanes and going through all of the different I mean within an, within a two hour period, they can go from freezing temperatures to a hundred degrees and so
Oh, it's five minute period.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
They're running down a hot 150, 160 degree runway, fully loaded with fuel people luggage. The tire temperature is gonna climb dramatically just in that 1500, 2000 feet before they take off. Five minutes later their minus 40.
So the temperature change is just astronomical time back to Deke.
.
So it's ultra important in that application. And again, the tires are so big on these aircraft, they're bigger than semi tires.
So moisture also has a huge effect on it. So the process product versus just a compressed air product.
Well, I hope we've cleared up the muddy water and these couple of issues here. We've learned a lot about the choices that you can make as a car owner when it comes down to synthetic versus conventional oil and whether you shouldn't have air or nitrogen in your tire. So hopefully we've cleared it up.
Ask questions.
That's a famous thing. Wherever you get your car maintained, ask them questions, do your research.
Sounds like a good approach to me.
We hope to have you ride along next time on all about the car. To listen to previous episodes, find additional resources, or to simply send us a message, head to all about the car podcast. Dot com. We'll see you next time.
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