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Rob:

Welcome to our podcast, all about the car brought to you by Schierl Tire and Service. I'm your host Rob Hoffman, an auto service specialist with over 46 years of industry experience. Back on the ride with me today is Bill Schierl, a guy that logs a lot of Wisconsin miles and always comes to the table with a lot of great questions. Welcome back, Bill.

Bill:

Thanks Rob. With today's conversation, I'll say it's glad to be in the seat.

Rob:

. All right, love it. Today we have a very special guest along the drive today and Jon Altman, relief lieutenant from the Marshfield Fire and Rescue Department. Welcome Jon.

Jon:

Thanks for having me.

Rob:

Glad you're here. Actually we're in your town, so yeah, thanks for having us.

Jon:

Hey. You're welcome. You're welcome anytime.

Rob:

Today we're gonna discuss what's right and what's wrong when it comes to child passenger safety and we'll specifically be looking closer at child safety seats. As a child passenger back in the late fifties and early sixties, all I remember was jumping into the car climbing up in the back deck window and off my dad went. I can't even say I remember a seatbelt at all being used in that 62 Ford Falcon. I was really surprised to learn that child seats came to the scene as early as the thirties and were primarily used so just your child could see out the window and most of them were homemade using gunny sacks and strapped to the seat back. Then, it wasn't until the sixties as safety features were engineered into child seats. And as the saying goes, we've come a long way baby. And Jon, when did it all start ror the fire department here in Marshfield?

Jon:

Winter of 2013, we had a discussion. We were actually approached by, at that time, St. Joseph's Hospital birth center that asked us if we'd be interested in participating in the child passenger safety program. So at that time our department sent three personnel one per shift to the class up in Wausau. It's a four day class, it's about 40 hours. And then we all became certified in February of 2014. So we're on our ninth year of doing car shift safety.

Rob:

Okay, and you were one of those that was certified, so you've been at it a long time.

Jon:

Yeah there's two of us that are still the original, myself and Lieutenant Brian Barnes are part of the original. The other third he retired. He's not with us anymore, but yep, now we're up to five technicians so that way we can try to get as many as we can.

Rob:

And this is obviously very important cuz this is the safety of our children. So it's important that from what I'm understanding, it's done correctly and done right. In some cases we need some instruction.

Jon:

Right car seats are becoming more and more complex, much like you said, they started off generic really easy. They're more of a convenience than a safety feature. And then as time went on, they get more complex, there's more features. Some of 'em can do one thing, some of 'em can do up to four things depending on the age of the child. So they're becoming more complex and as they become more complex, more people need help.

Rob:

Ah, so just like an automobile, they start coming with more bells and whistles.

Jon:

Yes.

Rob:

You got stay up to date on these things.

Jon:

Correct. And they all have the basic safety features, but much like a vehicle, if you want the power windows, you can get those or if you want the GPS system.

Rob:

Yep.

Jon:

Same thing with car seats. They all have different features, but the safety of them are all governed by safety regulation.

Rob:

So a question I had, and I thought I had heard something about this in the past, but I'm sure we can make that clear here today. Do they actually expire?

Jon:

They do. So car seats, if the manufacturer doesn't specify an expiration date, it's six years. So by law, every car seat has to have date of manufacturer on them. There's a sticker in there and it tells you the date that it was manufactured, six years. So you have to do the math. They don't sometimes give it to you, then they expire. The reason they expire is because first the sun will degrade plastics, fabrics, also hot cold swings. Especially here in Wisconsin. We all are well aware of those. But there could be a thing called a micro crack that starts in the plastic. We can't see it with our own eyes. It actually takes x-rays to determine if they're there. So they said the best thing to do is at six years get new ones. They do make new car seats out there that have an expiration at 10 years. Those are some of like the forever seats, the four in ones, there's different types out there and those ones are designed, their selling point is one car seat for the duration of the child. So it starts rear facing, goes all the way to a booster, but in order to make that effective, six years isn't enough. So they've manufactured 'em to 10 years on those car seats, they'll specifically say expiration date and then it'll give you that. So if there's no expiration date, six years, if there is follow that.

Bill:

I assume that those are more expensive.

Jon:

They are. Car seats are one of those things where you can spend, again, back to a vehicle, you can get a basic model that's fairly inexpensive or you can get the very high end ones where you're spending two, three, $400 for a car seat. Usually the money part of it is the bells and whistles. Again, all car seats have to test to a certain standard.

Bill:

So are we talking bells and like comfort creature bells and whistles? Like for the children that they have a little spot for their bottle water...

Rob:

Accessories.

Bill:

Or are we talking about actually additional padding or something like that?

Jon:

Like I said, they're all tested to the National Highway or Safety Institute standard. And what that is is they crash test them. Now the bells and whistles that you're asking about are like cup holders or head padding

Rob:

Creature comforts.

Jon:

Right. There are some features that make installing them a little bit easier that you may have to pay for.

Bill:

Do they yet have heated ones?

Jon:

Nope. Not that I know of.

Rob:

, I would think that's coming Bill.

Bill:

Right. Well I'm just thinking immediately like our car seats are heated and it would be nice to have.

Jon:

Nope, I don't think so. And that one might be kind of tough to get through cuz whenever we start talking about safety, anything that's heated has a potential starting on fire.

Rob:

Sure.

Bill:

Got it.

Jon:

You don't want a kid strapped in there...

Bill:

That would be very bad.

Jon:

Right.

Bill:

Yeah. Okay.

Rob:

I think some of the car seats, correct me if I'm wrong, but will then transfer over to a stroller?

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

I mean they like lock in and everything.

Jon:

Yep. So actually one thing that got me into car seat safety was my first son was born in June of 2014.

Rob:

Okay.

Jon:

So this opportunity came up, my wife said, Hey, this might be a good idea for you to learn how to do this. So I went and so what I learned was, yeah, there's car seats that can do all sorts of things. They can go from cars to strollers. There's some that are air certified, but by federal law they're not required in airplanes. But that's the safest way to do it is to put 'em in one, but only certain car seats, you have to look for an FAA stamp on it. Not all of most of them aren't FAA certified.

Bill:

Will it make a big difference of not to get rid of the stroller, I just see parents managing the stroller versus just keeping your child in the stroller, lifting about into the car seat and putting 'em in the airplane seat.

Jon:

Yep. Yep. And that is, if they're gonna transition like that, it's gonna be the infant carrier. So the infant carrier is designed for rear facing only, usually up to 35 pounds, some go up to 40. Once you go forward facing, then they don't transition very well. They're strapped into the vehicles.

Bill:

Igot i. Okay. Wow. All sorts of options there.

Jon:

Yes.

Rob:

So I'm gonna ask the obvious question, but I think we all know the answer. Every car built today can accommodate a child seat.

Jon:

Yeah. So...

Rob:

Other than a Lamborghini, maybe.

Jon:

Well one of the questions that we get asked a lot is what's the best car seat? What would you put your kid in if you had to put one in? And the answer is, whatever fits your child and your car. So we aren't brand specific. Every car does fit car seats within reason, like you said, the high end sports cars. I guess, I don't know legally if they have to be able to, but you might be able to. Most passenger cars nowadays do accept car seats. Some car seat brand won't fit in a certain seat type. But usually, I guess almost every time I've installed one, we were able to figure out a way to make it work. Back in 2019, the federal regulation said that they had to put a top tether securing strap in it. So if you ever looked at the back of your back seats, it looks like a boat anchor, a child kit kit, and a boat anchor. By law, in 2019, all car manufacturers in the United States had to install that in three seating positions. That prevents a car seat from going forward in a forward facing orientation. And then in 2000 they implemented a law that said that they had to have the lower anchors or the latch system in two seating positions, usually they're the rear outboard or the door seats, but we call 'em outboard. Usually there's not one in the middle seating position because that costs more for the manufacturer and they don't have to. Now there are some, there are some manufacturers that do put in the third. The only way to know that is read your owner's manual.

Bill:

So better driving experience for the child to be in the middle seat, I would assume forward facing. Of course.

Jon:

Yeah. We normally recommend the most vulnerable child sit in the rear center seating position. The reason we say most vulnerable is if you only have one child, obviously that's the most vulnerable. But if you have 2, 3, 4, usually it's the youngest or if there's somebody something with like a medical condition, they might wanna be in the middle.

Bill:

Actually, I said that more so from a visibility and being able to see out, not looking at the back of a seat. So why is that the preferred seat from a safety perspective is what I hear you saying.

Jon:

Yep. So the reason they say that is cars have come a long way in what we call crumple zones. So the front and the back of cars are designed to collapse. That takes a lot of the kinetic energy and disperses it around the patient compartment. The problem is obviously on the sides of cars, there's limited collapse space. I mean they're obviously, you guys are well aware that they're creating high density steels, borons things in there to try to protect that cage, but there's still no collapse zone. So in the middle that kind of gives you an artificial collapse zone.

Bill:

That is great to know since I've always thought riding in the middle, it's the worst seat to be torpedoed through the, obviously I'm wearing a seatbelt or whatever, but you always think like, here's the torpedo seat, but.

Jon:

Sure.

Jon:

Not the case.

Jon:

Right.

Bill:

Awesome.

Rob:

I'm always thinking about airbags too when we're talking about child safety seats. Well there's a lot of dynamics going on here with today's cars.

Jon:

Yeah. And the important thing about airbags, while you mentioned that, is rear facing car seats should never be placed in front of a forward facing airbag. So your two front seating positions normally have airbags in them. There is no time that a rear facing car seat should ever be placed in the front seat unless you can shut that airbag off. So nowadays, newer cars, high-tech cars, they can measure the weight in that car or in that seat and shut it off. Older cars, especially like pickups that didn't have rear seats had a key you'd have to use like your ignition key to shut it off. The reason for that is airbags deployed. There has been cases of airbags deploying and they push the car seat up and the kid suffocates against the seat. And so there's no time that we want to ever do that. You can stick a forward facing car seat in front of an airbag, but we try to keep 'em in the back seat at least until the age of 13. The only time we ever put 'em in the front seat is if we have no other options and we absolutely have to transport the child.

Rob:

As a new parent or parents, there's a lot going on in their lives as you remember back in 2014 I think you said.

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

So you've just brought your newborn home or you're going to be bringing home...

Bill:

Yeah you should have the car seat before you come to the hospital.

Rob:

There's a lot of things to think about here. So I mean, and then as you were talking, not all fits all. So I mean there's a lot of options. You walk into Target or Walmart or wherever and you have choices upon choices upon choices. What I'm gathering from our conversation here today is that the best place to start is with somebody like yourself.

Jon:

Right. Man, that's one thing that we encourage is if you have any questions, if you don't necessarily have a seat that you want help or education on, but you have questions, if you give us a call at the fire department here in Marshfield, if we're on duty, we'll answer it right away if we're not, we'll get back to you and we'll be able to kind of fill you in.

Rob:

So good to do that before you actually go shopping.

Jon:

Yeah, if you have any questions, then that's what we always encourage is we're there more for information than actually installing the seats, although we will help you with that. But we're there to teach more than to install

Bill:

Because a lot of people don't necessarily get the installation correct though. Correct.

Jon:

Correct. Yeah. Safe kids, well they didn't just, but they released some statistics that like 51% of all car seats are installed improperly. That 51% means it's anything from the installation to the child wearing the harness correctly. There's one thing in there that's wrong. And again, with car or seats getting a lot more complex back in the day, they used to just strap it to the back of the seat, throw the kid in and off you go. Well that's not necessarily the case anymore. Now, depends on what kind of car seat you have, it can be a, just a rear facing infant carrier could be a convertible or can go forward or back. It could be just a combination where it's a forward and a booster could just be a booster. So there's all sorts of different types out there. So you need to make sure you're getting the right style of car seat that fits the child appropriately for their development.

Bill:

Because the seat changes and the style of seat changes as your child ages.

Jon:

Correct. Yep. So you can, like I said, we can or you can go by what they call a forever seat or a four in one. Those are fairly expensive and one thing that they talk about is in the event of a crash. So if your car seat's involved in a crash and it's a moderate or severe crash, that car seat's garbage, you can't reuse it. The only way that they can reuse it is to get it re-certified through x-ray. But nobody does that. Nobody's gonna put their liability out there to do that. So you have to get a new one anyway. So a lot of people don't see the two $300 cost benefiting over the 10 years. But yeah, there is, there's the car seats will change what they look like, will change how they operate, changes the way they face changes, all depending on the development.

Rob:

Oh Jon, you touched on this earlier. I just wanna kind of come back. I'm assuming the final step in the progression of the car seat for the child as he grows, he or she grows. Is it a booster? Is that still a thing?

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

A booster seat?

Jon:

Yep. So just to go through the whole progression. So there's two different things that we're gonna talk about. State law and best practice whenever we do one of these seats, the parents are really involved with these because ultimately as long as they're following state law, it's up to them what they want to do after that. We highly, highly encourage best practice over state law. So in Wisconsin, the state law for rear facing, they have to be rear facing to the age of one and 20 pounds. So they have to be both of those criteria. Best practice is keep 'em rear facing to, they outgrow the car seat. Like I said, usually it's about 35 pounds, 40 pounds. One of the biggest concerns we hear about that is parents will say, well my kids' legs are crossed, they're kind of scrunched back there. Is that a problem? And there's been no documented injuries to the lower extremities because they stay rear facing too long. The next step after that is what they call a forward facing car seat or a five point harness forward facing seat. The state law says they have to be in that from the age of four and and 40 pounds. So they have to be both those criteria. Best practice is till they outgrow the car seat. A lot of those will go till 65, 70 pounds.

Rob:

Okay.

Jon:

So...

Bill:

Another thing to look at your manufacturer's tag on the car seat to see how much weight it can support.

Jon:

Correct.

Bill:

Engineering wise.

Jon:

So I know a lot of us will open boxes, take the owner's manual and just throw it and figure it out on our own.

Bill:

Yeah.

Jon:

But those owner's manuals are really important.

Rob:

Yeah.

Jon:

Whenever we have an appointment, we ask them to come with the owner's manual cuz every car seat's different on the sides of all car seats. They do have labels as well. So they will say what the weights are. There is a height requirement as well. So if you have a really skinny but really tall child, you'll have to look at that. Those are completely different depending on the seats. So I usually don't even throw a number out for that. But the weights tend to be fairly standard after the forward facing car seat. Then there's a booster. So the booster seats still definitely is a thing. And actually the law says eight years old or... So this is the first time you have an or not an and four foot nine or 80 pounds

Rob:

Four foot nine?

Jon:

Yep. So best practice though is actually a five step process. I can't just tell you until a certain age or certain weight. So the five step process is you have to put the child in the seat and their butt has to be all the way back against the back of the seats. They have to be in that position. Their knees have to bend over the seat, the seat belt has to be buckled, has to come over the collarbone and mid chest, and then the seat belt has to go over the hips. And then they have to be able to maintain that seating position for the entire ride. So what does that mean? 12, 13 years old? We normally recommend booster seat used till.

Rob:

Wow, okay.

Jon:

Yeah. My son's eight going on nine and he tells me a lot of his friends aren't in boosters anymore and he doesn't want to be. But that's a discussion that we have.

Rob:

So you say tell your friends to come to my house .

Jon:

Right. And that's one thing that we often will see is parents will come to us and say, Hey, I'm saying to my son or daughter, you need to be in a booster seat. They're telling me, no, the law, I don't need to be, can you tell me what's the best? So they come and I'm fine being the bearer of bad news for the child if it's the safest for them. And we'll go through the five step process. And if they fit, if they're 10 years old and they fit perfect, then I'm gonna side with them. If they don't fit, then I'm gonna side with the parent. Obviously whatever's safest is the way I'm gonna go.

Rob:

And that's really what the end of all here is. What's safest for the child.

Jon:

Correct.

Rob:

Yes.

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

So we live in central Wisconsin, which is very rural. So we have a lot of pickup trucks on the road. Some of those single cab pickup trucks. What's best practice or law when it comes to one seat in the vehicle and it's really a front seat.

Jon:

I'm gonna cover two things here. So if there's just a front seat, if it's just a single cab, so the best practice is to use another vehicle.

Rob:

Okay.

Jon:

That is the best practice. But sometimes I know we don't have the option. And in those cases you're gonna have to put them in the passenger seat. If there is a airbag, you can't, if it's a rear facing, I'm sorry. If there's a rear facing car seat, there's a airbag that you cannot shut off at no time can you trans that car seat does not fit that car.

Rob:

Now is that a law or best practice?

Jon:

That's best practice.

Rob:

Okay.

Rob:

Because again, everything comes down to if they're in the seat and they're transporting and you get pulled over and law enforcement officer comes up and and sees the child in the car seat, technically they're within the state statute. And the problem is when there's a crash and the airbag deploys, that's gonna be the issue. If there are forward facing, then you just put 'em in there. If you can shut the airbag off, shut it off. If not, it's okay. Just try to get the seat as far back from that airbag as you can get it. The other thing I wanna mention is sometimes we have, oh, I forgot what they call it, like double cabs or whatever, where their seats that are sideways.

Rob:

Yes, yes.

Jon:

At no time should a car seat ever be placed in a sideways car seat.

Rob:

Those aren't designed for that.

Jon:

Correct. First of all, they fold down. They're never crash tested sideways. They're always crash tested, head on or rear. They're not designed for that shear force

Rob:

That is good information for all of the pickup truck owners out here.

Jon:

Right.

Rob:

And I like where you started with this and said that best practice would be to find another mode of transportation.

Jon:

Correct.

Rob:

A safe...

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

Well that was very informational. And as with every, all about the car podcast, we always break away halfway through and take a interesting road trip. And today we're going to Green Bay, Wisconsin to Bay Beach. That's an amusement park. So we can take our best practices, get the right car seats in and take our children to Bay Beach. Bill, you've been there? I've been there back in the day.

Bill:

Yes, I go probably every summer since my wife is from Green Bay.

Rob:

Perfect.

Bill:

And went to Bay Beach as a kid a lot. And we ride now we go on the zippin pippin because my mother-in-law loves the zippin pippin and for four tickets I think it adds up to be a dollar per ride. It's a fun little time.

Rob:

It really is very affordable.

Bill:

You can go multiple times.

Rob:

So what's a zippin pippin?

Bill:

It's a little rollercoaster outside. Solid wood rollercoaster that has some height to it. I mean it turns your stomach a little bit. It gives you a little drop and yeah, I can make it maybe three times and then . It's like, okay, no more. That's enough.

Rob:

They have a concession stand. I know they've got great amusement park food. I mean for how great it can be, it's fun. They're right on the lake,

Bill:

Right on the lake, right on the water. People fish right from the beach and things like that. And there's set up for picnics. I mean that's usually what we are doing is bringing a picnic in.

Rob:

Perfect amusement. There's a train.

Bill:

Yeah.

Rob:

You can hop on the train and go throughout the grounds.

Bill:

Yeah.

Rob:

Yep. Absolutely. There's a one of those spinning swinging slides.

Bill:

Yes.

Rob:

Those have always been a favorite of mine.

Bill:

I only, I've done the zippin pippin.

Rob:

Well you're gonna have to branch out next time

Bill:

When go I'll now. Now this has encouraged me to branch out so I can report back.

Rob:

Yep. Every year you go.

Bill:

Yes.

Rob:

So now you can start...

Bill:

I'll try something new.

Rob:

To expand.

Bill:

Yeah.

Jon:

Well awesome. Well that's again on my list to come back to cuz I've been there before when my kids were young. So we're gonna make that happen.

Bill:

Jon, have you ever been to Bay Beach?

Jon:

I have. My wife is also from Green Bay.

Bill:

Ah!

Rob:

Perfect.

Jon:

She's a west sider.

Bill:

I was gonna say my wife's an east sider.

Jon:

Okay.

Jon:

That's always the, the second question. You we're from Green Bay, which side?

Jon:

Yep. Yep. Actually my son's four year old birthday party was at Bay Beach.

Bill:

Oh wow.

Rob:

Oh nice.

Bill:

That's awesome.

Jon:

So we much like Bill, we tend to head there about once a summer.

Bill:

I bet you go on more rides than other than the zippin pippin.

Jon:

We do. Nobody in my family, other than my wife likes the zippin pippin. My son's scared of roller coasters, but now they have a new Ferris wheel, a big Ferris wheel they have there.

Bill:

Oh.

Jon:

That one I think opened just a couple years ago maybe.

Bill:

Yeah.

Jon:

So my son likes that one. So that one we both do.

Bill:

I'll have to check that one out this summer.

Rob:

Those are always a little scary for me. It's just that quarter of it where you're going up and you get to the top. But it's a lot of fun.

Jon:

Yes.

Bill:

That's awesome.

Rob:

Okay, we're back on the road talking about child safety in regards to the child safety and booster seats. And in my research I had found, and you had already mentioned this too Jon, that an estimated over 50% of the child safety seats and boosters are actually misused.

Jon:

Yeah. There's at least one thing within there. It's either the installation or how the child is in the seat that's missused.

Rob:

So what are the most common ways of misusing those? What do you see?

Jon:

Okay, so I'm gonna break this into two things. Installation and then use. So the installation, some very common misuses or mistakes I see is it's not being tight enough. So you can either use a seatbelt or the latch system. You should never use both. That is one of the misuses.

Bill:

Why is that a problem? You would think it double protection.

Jon:

That's the number one answer I get. The problem is, is they're not crash tested that way. So there's shear force...

Bill:

Okay.

Jon:

So what I've been told is when they're hooked onto the lower anchors and a seat belt in the event of a crash, they're not sure where the energy's gonna go. So there could be shear forcing, causing problems. And let's say you had the latch kind of tight and the seat belt kind of tight, but together they got it really tight and then one fails. Now you have a kind of tight car seat. So that's why they say never used both. But then also when I say tight, a lot of people say, well how tight do I have to get this? So the belt or the seat belt or the latch is part of a belt. Wherever that goes is called the belt pass. At the belt pass you should be able to move the seat less than one inch. So you grab it and you try to pull in line with the seat belt or the latch system and if it moves more than one inch, you have to get it tighter. And that can be a challenge. That's usually the number one thing I see at the fire station. When people come in and they say, I've tried everything and I just can't get it tight enough. We do a couple little tricks and we get it tight. We teach the parents how to do that and then they go on their way. Another problem is, we talked earlier about car seats that go rear facing and forward facing because of the orientation change. There's two different belt passes within the car seat. If you're in a rear facing car seat, you have to use the rear facing belt pass. A lot of people don't realize that there's two different belt passes. They see, oh seat belt, they put it through and it could be the wrong one. So they have to make sure you're using the right one. And really those are the biggest misuses other than the wrong seats for the child. They want to go in the wrong orientation too soon. Too big of a seat too soon. But those are all things that we address as they're there. The common misuses of the seats as where the shoulder straps are, if they're rear facing, they have to be at or below the shoulders. If they're forward facing, they have to be at or above the shoulders. Easiest way to remember that is think about when you're in a car and you buckle your seat belt, where's your seatbelt coming up and over. Right. We're forward facing. Same thing applies with children, but in a rear facing seat, if there's a gap there, if there's a crash, they can slide. And you don't want 'em to slide and shoot out the top of the car seat. Another misuse is not tight enough. This was a discussion I have with a lot of people about how tight is too tight. And usually I say if your child's complaining about it, it's just right.

Rob:

Interesting.

Jon:

And there is a way to test. So up on the shoulder where the strap comes over, if you can pinch a little bit off, buckle the child all the way in, tighten it to where you think you need to, and then try to pinch head to toe on the seat, not the child.

Bill:

Right. So you're moving the belt.

Jon:

Yep. The belt. And if you can pinch anything, it's too loose.

Bill:

That makes sense.

Rob:

Ah.

Jon:

If you can't pinch in anything, it's just right. Don't go sideways. Obviously we can always pinch it sideways. Another misuse, especially here in Wisconsin, is winter jackets. We should never have a child in a winter jacket.

Rob:

Oh.

Jon:

The reason for that is we can't get partners on the tightness.

Jon:

Right.

Jon:

These winter jackets nowadays, especially little children, ones are very puffy.

Bill:

Right.

Jon:

And you can't get enough squoosh out of 'em. And so it might look tight because the seat's there, but in the event of a crash, the jacket compresses and there has been instances of children ejecting from seats because they're in a seat or they...

Rob:

Slide out of their jacket.

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

Yeah.

Jon:

And they compress that foam and they can slide right out.

Bill:

So this is another step in the process of leaving the house in the winter in the morning or any time.

Rob:

Yeah.

Jon:

Yes.

Bill:

Cause you need to warm up your car so your child is not gonna be in their jacket.

Jon:

Yep. And actually this is a good segue into your car seat should only be used with what came with your car seat. So, ah, what do I mean by that? So a lot of people will put mirrors or toys or things in their car. Well, those aren't crash tested. So safe kids doesn't recommend the use of anything that didn't come with the car seat. I'm not saying that they're going to fail, but they've just never been crash tested to prove that they won't fail. So especially in the wintertime, like you were saying, Bill, that you should put a child, if it's an infant carrier, it's one of those ones that you can take outta your car.

Bill:

Right.

Jon:

You walk around with.

Bill:

Yep.

Jon:

That you should bring 'em into the house, preheat the car, buckle them into the seat in something light, like a onesie type thing.

Rob:

That makes sense.

Bill:

Oh, and put it over.

Jon:

Yep. And once they're buckled in, then go, I don't wanna say go crazy, but then you can put blankets over them.

Bill:

Right.

Jon:

The problem that a lot of new parents have is actually the opposite of what we're all thinking is hyperthermia or too hot. So they think it's really cold out. They put a bunch of blankets on the child, put 'em in the car and they leave. They don't uncover the child. Well the car, especially nowadays with automatic heating, it's 72, 74 degrees, the child is still under all those blankets and they overheat. So that's one really important thing is once the child's in the seat remove, especially if they're like one of those covers, make sure you open up their face because it can get too hot. If you have one that's stuck in the car, they just recommend pre-heating the car. You can put 'em like in a light spring jacket, as long as there's not a lot of foam. And then run 'em out, install them, and then...

Rob:

Install them. Boy, it sounds like a lot of details go into this. And really there's a lot of habits that need to be formed here. I mean, we come and go from our houses every day, and even those young parents with kids, I mean, you're always on the move. So these have to be habits you're building and you're sticking to very closely all the time.

Jon:

Right. And with the habits, one thing that we also talk a lot about is isn't just in the car seat themselves. We cover a lot of in the car safety. So additional things such as if you go into my own vehicle right now, I probably have a book, some toys for my children. Well, one thing we all have to remember is in the event of a crash, those become projectiles.

Rob:

Absolutely.

Jon:

So those can shoot around and hit people. Another thing, especially like you said, we have to get into good habits of putting 'em in and out. I see a lot of people that are like, okay, I just have to run in to pay for my gas, so I'm gonna leave him there. Inevitably what's gonna happen is you're gonna run into somebody you know and you're gonna sit there and talk to him and either the child's gonna get too hot or too cold and then something bad can happen. Most of the time nothing does happen, but just turn on the news, wait till July, August, turn on the news and you're gonna hear about a child being left in his car.

Rob:

Yes.

Jon:

And so those are, we cover everything from those, everything in car safety.

Bill:

Especially as new parents. We've all heard about the stories of when the child's left at the wayside.

Jon:

Right? Yep.

Bill:

Just not in your head yet.

Jon:

Yep.

Bill:

I get it.

Rob:

But it really comes down to being the responsibility of the parents. We've really gotta do the research as you've talked about today, Jon, and we really have to take on that responsibility. Another thing came up as we were talking here that I just wanted to throw out there. Often times our children in some cases end up riding with other caregivers, nannies, whatever the case may be, may be switching vehicles. I hate to say they're switching car seats. That's probably not a good thing. What's your take on that? What's your recommendation?

Jon:

Sure. So whoever the child is riding with needs to have an appropriate car seat. Easiest is everybody has their own car seat. You install it and you go, I do know there's cost limitations with that though. I know car seats can be fairly expensive. So if like when my wife and I both have individual car seats, I have one in my truck, she has one in her SUV. So whatever one, I have a five year old and eight year old, whatever one is with us, goes into their seats and off we go.

Rob:

Okay.

Jon:

It's really no big difference. The big issue is when we go back to see grandma, grandpa and me and the wife are gonna go take a weekend away type of trip. They don't have car seats being two and a half hours away. They don't have to transport very much. So then I do, I have to take my car seat out or my wife's whoever's vehicle we're in, out, out, put it into the parent's seat.

Rob:

You install it...

Jon:

Yep.

Rob:

Into the other car.

Jon:

Correct. And that's why it's really important if you come to one of these car seat events or you come to a fitting station at the fire department. Yes. So one of the big misconceptions is that we just install it and then you leave and then you're good to go. If you have any questions, you come back. The average install time is about 30 to 45 minutes because the bigger part of it is the education aspect of it. We teach you how to install it appropriately because I'm not gonna be with you in Green Bay or in Denver or down in Florida. So when it comes time for you to install it, you need to know how to do it as well. And we do model specific training. So they'll come in, we'll look at the model it is and go over it with them on how all the operations work.

Rob:

Sounds like best practice is to always keep the child's car seat with that child.

Jon:

Yeah. It's okay to have different ones. So my forward facing for my five year old is a different model than my wife's.

Rob:

Ok. So you don't switch.

Jon:

Yeah. We just haven't set up for that child. That's the biggest thing is we do have some grandparents in town who have grandchildren from out of town and they'll come to us to have them or have us double check their car seat or help them because their family is coming in for the weekend or the week and they need to have a car seat. But some grandparents use the same car seat for different children.

Rob:

Okay.

Jon:

The most important thing is that's set up for that child and it's the appropriate car seat for that age group because if you have a three-year-old grandson and a eight-year-old grandson, those are two different completely car seats. So you need to make sure that you're using the appropriate way as well.

Rob:

And of course this goes without saying, but as a driver or as a parent, we never wanna drive drowsy or tired.

Jon:

Correct. Yeah. Anytime we're impaired, you pick the reason for impairment.

Rob:

In any way. Yes.

Jon:

You never wanna be behind the wheel. Being with the fire department, I know we're talking about on the proactive side of things, being on the ambulance, the reactive side, we see what happens in those events. It's usually not a good thing.

Rob:

Well, we've learned a lot today about child safety while traveling or simply commuting across town. As our society continues to move farther and faster becomes even more important to keep our children safe. Thank you Jon Altman from the Marshfield Fire and Rescue Department and the Child Passenger Safety Program for joining us on our podcast All about the car today.

Jon:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Bill:

It's great information.

Jon:

Thank you.

Rob:

We hope to have you ride along next time on all about the car. To listen to previous episodes, find additional resources, or to simply send us a message, head to all about the car podcast dot com. We'll see you next time.